Rumors have swirled around Apple’s flagship music and audio software since the company first absorbed Emagic. In the absence of a Logic update, the rumors are back. This time, they come from an unusual source: former Emagic employee Philippe Brodu, in his blog “Le Sith de Feeleebee.”

Des collectors Emagic : ça vous intéresse ?
Logic 8 : Une nouvelle pièce au puzzle !

An excited French reader on’s message forum sums it up this way:

There will be no Logic 8!!!!!

The new app will have a new name.
They are working on it for 5 years and it will be out this year.
It will be a “Pro Tools Killer” with a Logic feel but in a new user interface and take advantage of OSX.5 (it will need it and don’t work on X.4 or prior) and new Apple hardware (touch screen display!).

More info: no more xskey and no more envirronement [sic]

Whoo, and it’ll make cappuccino! And it’ll have support for a new, high-definition replacement for MIDI that Apple will push to become an industry standard! (Not sure which of those is less likely, actually.)

Before you rule this out, though, there’s a well-reasoned argument for it at Barbarism Begins at Home:

Will There Be No Logic 8?

Fortunately, I happen to know absolutely nothing about future versions of Logic, so I think I can safely speculate, secure in the knowledge that anything I say that does happen to be true is entirely coincidental. A “Pro Tools killer” says more about the sales of the resulting product than the product itself, though I’m sure Apple would like to make some bigger inroads in Digidesign’s market the way Final Cut did with Avid. (Though there are plenty of Avid editors out there, still.)

I know enough to say this: the successor to Logic may be a huge upgrade, and may even have a new name, but it’ll still be aimed at musicians and will likely remain connected to the core of Logic and GarageBand. Beyond that, we can say anything we like and amuse the people at Apple (a number of whom read this site); they know more than we do.

Completely Uninformed Speculation Begins!

Does Apple still care about music? Apple has expressed real commitment to me to the music market — and by music market, I mean musicians, not just the nebulous “pro audio” or people doing audio post for its more lucrative video market. I do expect them to go after this audience more aggressively in an upcoming release. I also know Apple knows that its users haven’t been entirely happy with elements of Logic’s interface and design; long-time users master and love it, but some tasks are harder to perform than they should be. Logic 7 made big steps to making this app more Apple-like, but it’s obvious they’ll continue to work on that.

What about release dates? Why are Logic — and iLife ’07 — delayed? Well, I heard from Apple developers — as from everyone else — that porting Logic to Intel Macs required some effort. It makes sense that that would have delayed the rest of the development pipeline. And it’s a safe bet to assume that Apple began looking at the big picture plans for Logic at the time of the acquisition of the software.

All of us were speculating at Macworld Expo that the absence of iLife ’07 meant Apple would have its consumer app upgrades coincide with Leopard, to take advantage of new graphics features. That makes sense for iPhoto and iMovie, but it’s unclear what it would mean for something like Logic. I do know something about the graphics developments in OS X 10.5, and Core Animation and Quartz Composer integration look like they will impact a lot of applications from Apple and many third-party developers, as well. Anything with eye candy in it will get a huge boost. But as for music, that’s less clear.

Is Apple readying a new app? Maybe they’ll change the name; “Logic” sounds German and electronic music-related. (Doesn’t it just make you want to make some minimal techno? And Vulcans dig it.) But I seriously, seriously doubt this will be an entirely new application. Look at it this way: GarageBand is an entirely new application, but it’s also based entirely on the underpinnings of Logic, from its notation facility to looping to EXS24 sampler support, GarageBand is Logic Pro 7 with a different face. This proves two things: first, it’s possible to radically change Logic without altering its core or backwards-compatibility, and second, Apple would be unlikely to abandon that core because it would hurt both Logic and GarageBand.

Will it have a touchscreen? This seems like wishful thinking, but there’s one reason to believe it might be true. Apple’s iPhone turned out to be just a phone/iPod/browser, so I doubt you’ll be integrating it with Logic, much as we might like. But remember Apple’s multi-touch tablet patent? It specifically showed a music mixer application. This could mean one of two things: one, it was a research idea that got abandoned, but spread through the grapevine starting this rumor. Or, two, maybe we will see a multi-touch music controller from Apple. It’s an extremely unlikely possibility, but I wouldn’t rule it out entirely, especially with multi-touch tech getting used on the iPhone.

(Again, I can say this because I know nothing. If someone connected to Apple had told me something, I’d be saying nothing. Maybe there’s still time for them to add that cappuccino feature.)

Does this rumor hold weight? There’s really no way of telling. Apple has, bar none, the tightest ship in the industry as far as information leaks, so usually if you hear information from a non-official source, chances are it’s wrong. Moreover, a lot of rumors are based on real information that’s outdated or distorted. But you knew that.

There will be an upcoming pro music app from Apple — that’s for sure — and when we hear something real, we’ll pass it along. In the meantime, feel free to join the idle speculation. Speaking of which …

How about that music touch screen / hardware rumor?

More Apple Patents Suggest New Music App, Musical Instrument?

Multi-touch Apple music interface? Non-Apple music keyboard as a pet project of Emagic founder Dr. Lengeling’s? Nothing at all? Hard to say. Rumor mull, anyone?

  • god I hope this ain't true!

    I just bought Logic 7.2 Pro for the first time and eagerly waiting for it to be shipped!

    If no logic upgrade comes out then I basically have just wasted my money on a software that has no future.

    No matter what kind of new apple app comes out, it better be compatible with logic and should provide upgrade from logic 7.2.

    I'll be so mad if they discontinue logic just like that.

  • Well, this is only rumorland, so who knows. But Apple has re-built acquired apps before, as with DVD Studio Pro and Final Cut, and allowed users to upgrade. Even if they change the name, I would imagine there will be an upgrade path; they want to retain their existing customer base. And whatever this rumor says, I could also imagine a huge music upgrade coming out of Apple that was still called "Logic 8." Time will tell. In the meantime, as a Logic 7 user, there's *plenty* in there to keep you busy. You could take a year sabbatical and just play with Sculpture and nothing else and be happy.

  • kevin

    If it happens they will provide a crossgrade/upgrade.

    Now the hardware actually is already released and ready to go !

    Look at apogee's website. Now it may become all clear why the ensemble took some time in the software department…. or the PCIe cards. That's a direct protools killer.

    But i think it's better to keep the name LOGIC instead of a new fresh name.

  • I posted as much on Gearslutz ages back, for I am a Doktor of the Future 🙂

    Even if it's not called Logic '8' (big numbers are boring and intimidate people), it is good to try to innovate on other levels.

    The real trick is not to have it be a PT killer, which no amount of 'features' will do — instead, it needs to be an Ableton Live killer.

    So I'm interested in seeing how they drive the user experience.

  • Jim B

    PS – Jeremy: Even if a new version comes out tomorrow, Logic 7.2 is still an amazing package that you can use to make great music. The included plugs are top notch (Hammond, Clav, ES2, ES1, Sculpture, Ultrabeat, EXS24…) – no other package comes close. It won't be "wasted money" by any stretch.

  • Eric R

    I too just recently bought Logic 7, but more to be compatible with the legions of producers out there who are on it.

    Logic is a weird package. I'd want to recommend it to a new producer cause the instruments/effects that come with it are pretty phenomenal, and it'd be a perfect "all-in-one" solution, however the interface/UI is so confusing that I couldn't recommend it for a new DAW user. I can teach peopel how to use Sonar in under 45 mins, but they'd need a slew of NI products to get softsynths that could rival what you get in Logic.

    Oh well, as long as I have the *option* of upgrading I'll be happy 🙂

  • I don't understand why people say Logic is so difficult to use. I've been using it since version 3 and I find programs like Nuendo to be more difficult to use.

  • Zach S

    Logic's UI has a its quirks for a new user. I made a trip to the apple store in panic because I couldn't get sound out of soft synths in my newly acquired Logic 7. This was after being a long time user of Acid and Vegas. I was completely confounded by Logic's UI at first, but now I can do just about whatever I want. I think it has a much larger learning curve than a typical Apple app. I was new to the Mac when I was new to Logic, so I had a comparison of speed in learning the UI.

    The one skill I wish Apple would apply to Logic (or its replacement) is the ability to have an interface that is immediately usable, but slowly unfurls more advanced features when needs. New users of Logic should be able to use a soft synth or record audio right out of the box, much as new user can create a basic presentation with Keynote right away, but slowly discover its myriad more advanced features.

  • I'll echo what's said here, even as a fan of Logic. Portions of the Environment make tasks unnecessarily difficult without adding real flexibility or power. Making something less accessible doesn't necessarily make it more advanced. Logic 7 made some real headway over previous versions in this respect, but there are still some working methods that take too long. Compare, for instance, the built-in MIDI tools in software like Ableton Live, or even the lack of simple tools like a simple arpeggiator. (Not for everyone, it's true, but Logic's implementation inside the Environment is to me needlessly complex.)

    Also, for those of us moving between Apple's various pro apps, the differences can be maddening. By default, the same keyboard shortcuts don't even work across their whole pro line for something as simple as transport. And Logic isn't included in any of the round-trip workflows with Final Cut Studio, even though it's more capable in some respects than Soundtrack Pro.

    I wouldn't say these stop me from suggesting Logic, only that I expect they were on the top of the list at Apple.

    Of course, any application can be challenging when you first see it. Ableton gets credit — rightfully so — for simplification and intuitiveness, but I've seen people struggle even with it. A lot has to do with your background, approach, style, and taste.

    The big question for Logic, as with any of the big DAWs, is figuring out exactly who their market is. In the past, you just kept piling on features. Now I think it's important to step back and look at overall design, workflow, and function, and I hope that's what Apple has been doing.

  • inasilentway

    I also don't know why people think Logic is so difficult to use. I just imported Garageband files into it and it was pretty easy to see how everything was laid out, it was fairly easy to teach myself. There are some things like Rewire that can be tricky but really no more so than any other DAW. Overall I'm very satisfied that I chose Logic as my DAW and have convinced others to choose it as their first DAW; the big selling point for them was that they could import Garageband files and use that to teach themselves.

    I had to learn DP for a class and I found it to be a major pain in the ass. By comparison, Logic is a cakewalk (no pun intended). Apple has really made it behave like a Mac: things Just Work in it.

  • I should qualify. *Parts* of Logic are quite easy. Parts are unnecessarily hard, in a way that can be confusing or slow you down. (cough, Ultrabeat!) And when people find Max/MSP patching to be easier than Environment, I think that specific area is a problem, especially given that Max is a much deeper tool. It means the UI design isn't scaling properly in relation to functionality.

    But I agree, there are other portions of the program that are designed very elegantly.

    I think Apple is aware of these areas, so I look forward to seeing what they've done with the new version. In the meantime, as I said, there's lots of music to be made with the current version. It's not so much that you always need the latest-and-greatest — if time stopped with Logic 7, I'd keep using it as-is. But I do think that upgrades, done right, can allow you to feel like you don't need to look back. I'm certainly happier with Logic 7 than Logic 5, with Live 6 than Live 2, and so on.

  • bliss

    I disagree with the DP vs Logic comparison. Logic works like wacky software, whereas DP works like traditional hardware–especially where routing audio tracks and MIDI tracks are concerned; in DP one just makes connections, in Logic one has to create objects and then make connections. That's just one example of Logic being unintuitive. Logic is cool, I've used it in the past and use Logic Express (w/DP) now, but in terms of ease of use Logic is not an intuitive application by any means for the average user.

    But I do like the sound of this rumor that Peter has hipped us to!

  • 43macs

    Prediction: all new software from Apple this year will be Leopard only. As in, will NOT run on Tiger. Such a move would maximize revenue, and give software projects the freedom to use Leopard's new tech without having to support legacy systems.

    Logic is deeply focused on MIDI, had audio kind of grafted on years ago, and had softsynths/FX pounded in with rusty nails. (I have to bounce my softsynth track to get audio? What?) After this, having to become universal binary, and who knows what else. A clean slate sounds like an excellent idea.

    I also notice that Logic sticks out from the group in pricing. $1000 can get you the multi-app Final Cut Studio. At it's end of life, Shake is now $499 (!), down from thousands. Apple seems to focus on using software to move hardware, so I predict a price drop on Logic 8/New Audio Thingy.

    Finally, mini-Garageband for the iPhone please. 🙂

  • Selah

    No surprise if Apple ditches the Environment: In Logic 7 it already feels like something tagged along but mostly neglected, while other features get improvements and face lifts.

    I'd really like to see the Environment replaced with something more in the spirit of Quartz Composer (or Bidule or PD or Max/MSP), but I think it's more likely the whole advanced midi routing functionality gets dropped. Which makes me wonder if it's time to abandon Environment projects. Better to not get attached to your custom-built, performance-tuned midi setup if it's going to be useless upon upgrade.

    I agree that Apple needs to set it's sights on Live (not PT) if it wants to really stir things up. How many people are married to Logic's instruments and effects, but in lust with Live's super slick performance/production paradigm?

    I say, take Logic 7's instruments and effects (and those delicious channel strip settings), throw it all under Live's interface, and I'll have my credit card out faster than Ableton can cry foul.

  • Selah, I do think Logic is a great buy. But as for adding instruments and effects to Live, isn't that what plug-ins are for? The channel strip settings in Logic are terrific, but you can get even more out of Racks in Live, as far as integrating settings.

    That's not a Live vs. Logic comparison, I'm just saying you have the option of taking a DAW that costs less than half as much and choosing a la carte effects and instruments. It's likely to be cheaper to get Logic, but you would have some additional options going the a la carte route. (Imagine NI Komplete + Live — pricier, but significantly more breadth.)

    That doesn't mean Komplete + Live is better than Logic 7 — just that you'd choose based on other reasons, like Logic's editing paradigm.

    So, to me, the next version of Logic needs to continue to be about things Live isn't. I wouldn't say Live currently offers a better way of working than Logic, just a different way of working — sometimes a good thing. Whatever happens next should continue to differentiate between these products. If there's something to be learned from Live, it's about enabling live performance, keeping the whole interface onscreen, and paring down interface elements.

  • The only thing I would love to see Logic improve is the GUI. Everytime I open GarageBand I think it looks so sexy – like other Apple apps. But Logic doesn't do it for me visually. It doesn't carry the Apple aesthetic. I used to use GarageBand like I would use a text editor and use Logic like a full-on word processor. But the added steps stopped making sense. Plus, many of the major shortcuts don't match up which made switching back and forth even more difficult. So now I mainly use Logic but I really miss the simple feel of GarageBand. I still launch it once in a while for fun.

    So if there ever is an update, simplify and sexify. 🙂

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  • Hz

    crystal pure fake

  • dan choi

    One think I wish we could see across all DAWs is more APIs for outside developers to extend the basic capabilities of each software package with. The basic idea is like what's going on with Amazon Web Services, Yahoo APIs, Flickr API, Google Maps, etc., where the web application exposes methods and classes that outside developers can use to build innovative new interfaces to the application.

    So for Logic Pro, instead of just having plugins for instruments and audio effects, developers could use APIs to the sequencing engine to make new kinds of editing windows. Don't like the Event Editor? Why not let outside developers create an new kind of event editor that works in the Terminal, and even in any arbitrary text editor like Vim? Don't like the HyperEditor? Why not expose an API that makes it possible for tinkerers to build an improved HyperEditor?

    All this would bring some of the dynamism of open source software development to the evolution of Logic Pro. Just as the Google Map APIs have given rise to 100s of great new ways to exploit the map data, an API for Logic Pro could give rise to 100s of new ways to compose and arrange music.

  • "GarageBand is Logic Pro 7 with a different face"

    I am not sure there are too many people that would agree with you on this. Logic has a huge learning curve, Garageband has no learning curve. There has to be some very fundamental difference to account for this. Logic and Garageband both can use AppleLoops and *exs format. There are the 2 similarities.

    Also, all this "Logic needs to catch up to Live" is nonsense. Live can't even change time signatures. Where are the groove templates? One giant window to work in, what? Nothing even close to an Environment-esque feature. Live is a great product, but it has some serious short comings.

    @dan choi, I think your idea is interesting, but it also could possibly lead to huge stabilty issues. Having your 'hooks' in such a deep level in the application might create too many problems. Currently, I like how there several options to do accomplish the same task (e.g., Matrix, or Hyper editor for midi data). Do I want to access the Event editor from ruby (or irb)? Yeah, that might be interesting, but I don't want to add any instabilty, because I accidentally wrote an infinite loop, or other careless coding error.

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  • @chris burke

    Your point about instability is good, but I don't think that Logic would have to expose hooks at a deep level to allow third parties to develop new arranging interfaces. The operations that the Event, Hyper, and Matrix editor all do are basically pretty simple compared to the processing that third party effects plugins do. All these windows do is make it possible to move around and insert MIDI information and information for when audio files should be played, repeated, or looped. I would love for these things to be exposed to Ruby. The processing speed wouldn't even be much of an issue, because the arranging and note editing usually takes place while the app isn't in play mode. If you look at all the info the Event Window and the Audio Files window displays, I think that is about everything that the exposed API should make scriptable and manipulable.

  • gecko

    <blockquote cite="all new software from Apple this year will be Leopard only. As in, will NOT run on Tiger. Such a move would maximize revenue, and give software projects the freedom to use Leopard’s new tech without having to support legacy systems.">

    I disagree. When was the last time Apple did anything like that? When Tiger first came out, their other new software also supported Panther. You don't maximize revenue by forcing everyone to upgrade the OS when they buy new software… that's the way that microsoft works, not Apple. Anyway, you can easily manage features based on the version of the OS directly in the code.

    <blockquote cite="(I have to bounce my softsynth track to get audio? What?)">

    What do you even mean by this? How else do you expect it to work? You can also bus a softsynth to an audio track and record it without having to bounce if this is what you are talking about.. I don't get what the big deal is though with either bouncing or "export region as audio" …

    <blockquote cite="'GarageBand is Logic Pro 7 with a different face'

    I am not sure there are too many people that would agree with you on this. Logic has a huge learning curve, Garageband has no learning curve. There has to be some very fundamental difference to account for this. Logic and Garageband both can use AppleLoops and *exs format. There are the 2 similarities.">

    What does the learning curve have anything to do with the underlying engine? The garageband engine IS the logic pro 7 engine. You can prove it by opening up a garageband song inside Logic. take a look at the environment. You'll see how garageband has its tracks set up by default and what plugin engines they are really using. The very fundamental difference is the UI and the UI only.

  • gecko

    ok my last post was totally fucked. the first paragraph was in response to 43macs about logic 8 being leopard only and removing any support at all for tiger.

    2nd paragraph is also towards 42macs re: "(I have to bounce my softsynth track to get audio? What?)"

    3rd is to Chris Burke about GB and Logic.

  • Chris, I may have overstated the GB-Logic connection, but Apple has confirmed that there's much more in common between GarageBand and Logic than AppleLoops and the EXS format. The instruments are built on the EXS sampler, the effects are common, notation is common, and as I understand it, a significant amount of the guts of the app, and a common project file format. Beyond that, it's tough to say. It's not a re-skinned Logic; I didn't mean to imply that. But my understanding is that there is shared code, which would be important from a development standpoint. What it demonstrates to me is that you can maintain the core and radically alter the user interaction.

    No, Logic doesn't need to catch up to Live, any more than Live needs to catch up to Logic. For the record, Live can change time signatures in arrangements, just not sessions, which is a fundamentally different feature Logic doesn't have. Groove templates: I agree. Giant window: matter of opinion. There are different ways of working and different projects, which is why there should always be more than one music app.

  • @chris burke

    Imagine how great it would be if you could grep and insert Apple Loops into a Logic arrangement from a command line, or issue commands to loop this region 10 times, or copy that region to measure 6, or make 15 copies of a 16th note and add swing to it, from a CLI using command line macros like you can do in emacs or vi. Or maybe you could have a hybrid UI, where you can select regions or notes with a mouse, and then run commands on them using a mini-terminal.

    I think that Logic's (and other program's) exclusively WIMP (windows, icon, menus, pointing device) UI often constrains creativity and fast workflow. There is nothing like the UNIX command line, and I wish there was more of that power and succinctness in DAWs.

  • scott

    well, as someone who has tried all of the above apps (Logic,DP,GarageBand, Live) i'd say Apple, with Logic, did what they could in cleaning up Logic 7.1. as a user of Logic Education and Platinum on OS9 there were lots of highly unintuitive interface issues (such as blank areas next to parameter names – how do you know that they actually do anything?). GarageBand is much easier to get around for a first timer, but lacks a few interface niceties.

    Logic's main strengths for me lie in the field of electronic composing with loops and cool effects, and especially virtual instruments. DP (apologies to those users) doesn't even come close in terms of CPU efficiency for plug-in synths. i use DP for my Pro tools equivalent. it is rock solid and the channel routing and Mixer layout is very similar to ProTools.

    interesting to read about everyone hoping that Apple will come up with a Live clone. for me i found Live useless for actually composing, better for live DJ triggering loops and such (as of Live 4 – haven't tried newer versions). i thnk it depends on where the market would actually be. it seems that new products would be leaning more toward protools than consumer DJ stuff as that is where the high-end studios are. wouldn't they be trying to expand their user base they already have with Logic and with Final Cut Pro/SundtrackPro rather than strike out in a new direction with a live interactive loop machine and virtual synth player? Live does a pretty good job of that already. an excellent touch sensitive control interface about half the cost of a Lemur might be a pretty cool device, especially if it were configurable.

  • Hey Peter: I change tempo shift and change time signatures within Logic arrangements all the time. If I couldn't I'd be screwed while scoring TV spots. I have Live, Logic DP, ProTools, Garageband, Soundtrack Pro, etc. I use all these apps, but use Logic the most often since I feel it's the most versatile for my work. I've also been using it for 10 years, so maybe that's part of it too. It's also pretty damn impressive as a all-around package. The plugins and instruments are definitely worth it. For example, this is the Grand Piano instrument from the EXS24 sampler within Logic Pro:

    click here to listen

    Every note was programmed individually on a laptop while I was on a flight from NY to SF. As far as the client was concerned, they thought it was played live on a Steinway. I don't know of any other application that might have been able to pull that off convincingly enough.

    I'm actually hoping Apple fuses Soundtrack Pro into Logic more than they have already. They do compliment each other very well. Either way, the thought of every huge studio dropping ProTools for a new Apple application seems a bit far fetched. Although if Apple did come up with something better I wouldn't complain if everyone switched!

  • "For the record, Live can change time signatures in arrangements, just not sessions…"

    Peter, this makes it worthless. Set the global meter to 4/4. Now make a clip of 5/4 and make a clip of 4/4. Now try to switch between those two clips. It doesn't change correctly and it's a ridiculously basic feature that is not in Live.

    "There are different ways of working and different projects, which is why there should always be more than one music app."

    Well said. Having Logic, Live and PT makes for an insanely powerful and versatile toolbox. There's no need to have an epic debate about which DAW is the DAW to rule them all. I echo your opinion of using the right tool(s) for the right job.

    Also, all of these comments concerning "maximizing revenue by only using 10.5" are nonsense. There are some dramatic core improvements in 10.5. Textmate 2.0 will only run on 10.5, not because the developer is pushing 10.5 sales, but he wants to really utilize and maximize his product with the new features in 10.5.

  • Chris and others, you're preaching to the converted. One might say:

    "Live’s radical simplicity can be limiting in some cases, even with the latest improvements. Having just one global swing setting pales compared to the multiple groove quantize options we’ve taken for granted from MIDI sequencer apps for years. Live 6 has a fantastic new feature that maps tempo to a master clip in Arrangement View, which can let you sync an entire arrangement to the feel of a single track or video file. But there’s no way to extract that groove and apply it elsewhere, or to change the feel of clips in the Session View. That’s too bad, because competing DAWs have added “extract-groove-from-audio” features. It’s also frustrating that after all these releases, you can’t insert true meter changes in Session View, or control the master meter via MIDI or keyboard shortcut. And given Live’s otherwise fantastic and intuitive routing, the lack of a real sidechain input for its internal effects is a bummer. All that said, however, Ableton seems largely in tune with their users’ wants, and Live remains the one music tool I always come back to the most."

    … as I did in my review for Keyboard.

    Actually, while I didn't have space to go into this (and I think my review got trimmed even after that), it is possible to mix clips of different time signatures even in Session View. What you can't do is *quantize* launch times based on those time signatures — so you could switch between them, but quantized to the quarter note. That's still a pain, I agree, but it is something Ableton die-hards are aware of as well as critics, and something we've made Ableton aware of.

    In any application, there is a to-do list of features, very often worthy. There's certainly one for Logic 7, and I expect Apple has been working through it. The key is how you decide what to prioritize and how you implement the changes, and that really determines a lot about who you are as a developer and who your product will attract.

    I wouldn't ever try to do sophisticated scoring with Ableton Live, for example; I'd be much happier using the more extensive, linear approach of Logic's interface. On the other hand, if I were doing a scoring project with tightly-clipped, beat-synced videos, Live 6 might be ideal. I might even switch between the two.

    It sounds like we're in agreement, though. I think we all see value in these different tools, and room for them to improve. And I'm also happy to say that I've felt a lot of what we've gotten from companies like Apple and Ableton (among others not mentioned here) has been forward progress. That's no small feat, and part of the reason has been a communicative, loyal user base and developers who do sometimes listen to them.

  • Oh, and I am pretty sure I didn't use the word "bummer" to describe sidechaining. I'm east coast. We never use that word. 😉

  • I recently bougth Logic Pro 7.2 and I am very happy with it. However development of the program has slowed down and it hasn't had any changes for ages. I like the name Logic and it would be ashame if Apple changed it. I think Apple needs to make Logic easier to use. The audio fx and synths need more presets. I spoke to someone recently and they said to me Logic 8 will come out later this year and its new features will be aimed at Mastering and Mixing in order to compete with Pro Tools. Also interestingly they said that Apple plans to increase its partnership with companies so they can bundle products. I bought Focusrite Saffire, but it took me ages to make up my mind in which audio interface to change. What I would like to see in Logic Pro 8 or whatever it is called features that make Logic easier to use. The manual needs to be re-written and have tutorials like how to record a song. It took me ages to work out how to get the soft synths playing, the manuals lack this basic info. Luckily I worked it out.

  • Nic

    Just read the "news"

    No environment???? Its the selling point of this app.

  • Dialashop: I'd agree developent has slowed down, but about the FX and synth presets? There are hundreds of them to choose from. As far as being difficult to use, I've noticed that if someone is a audio professional for a living or a Ã&frac14;ber geek, they can jump right in sans manual and get things running. If someone is new to sequencing, I never suggest they go out and buy Logic Pro. If you've never used an app like that, it can be quite discouraging. That said, I'm glad you're happy with the application now.

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  • I see this way too often. People who think

    Logic is too unituitive. Most of the time it is because people just dont read the manual. Then there is getting started guide. Over 100 pages

    on just the things some have complained about like getting soft synths to work. Logic was my second DAW. I had PT first but got rid of it because I did not think it was intuitive. Logic makes sense if you just read a bit.

    Also the creating audio object thing is one reason it is better. Logic is giving you the choice to create ANY kind of track you want

    you are not forced to use something the software writer thought would be best for you.

    This is the greatest thing about Logic. It is the

    ultimate in customization for how you work. It adjusts to you. You just have to learn how to make Logic come along for the ride.

  • Mark

    The name 'Logic' isn't very Apple-like.

    It doesn't say anything about the program other than it may be a philosophy app.

    Garageband is intuitive and Logic is not.

    Garageband is beautiful and Logic is not.

    Apple needs to not only update Logic's features, but majorly updat the UI.

  • Wait a minute, Phil, I agree more people should read manuals, but: "Over 100 pages on just the things some have complained about like getting soft synths to work." That's way too much documentation for a problem like that.

    And, while I'm a huge fan of some of Logic's depth and flexibility, and think that can be worth the learning curve, how exactly is something like an audio object such a major advantage? I can't think of every having felt with another program that I was "forced" to use a certain kind of audio / MIDI / soft synth track / aux send, etc. Am I missing something? I think Apple did the right thing with the templates to make some of those assumptions, because this isn't necessarily flexibility that's useful.

    And there are many times when, for all its complexity, Logic is very *inflexible.* I've talked to multiple people who wound up switching to Max/MSP just to build a patch to work around the way Logic operates for live performance. And that's a perfect example: lots of people would like to perform in Logic rather than Live for various reasons.

    This isn't an endorsement of Logic's competitors; Logic has many strong points, from an interface that is elegant and beautiful in many respects to some incredible instruments and effects. But I think there should be a way to improve upon the original principle of the Environment, so that it's more flexible for the tweakers and less intrusive for beginners. Right now, it causes some issues for both.

    I think what began this discussion was not "is Logic a good program," but "is there room for improvement." I think you can take any product on the market and find some room for improvement, and get good feedback from users — both the experts and those who didn't read the manual.

  • "Garageband is intuitive and Logic is not.

    Garageband is beautiful and Logic is not."

    How illogical to say either! 🙂

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  • quantize

    no it's not…to any Cubase or Protools user those comments make perfect and precise sense..

    Logic is a horror to use..anyone who knows those apps, realise this immediately

    Maybe Apple realise this also..that could be good for everyone..

    except the retarded Audio Unit / VST mini war we really didnt need…support both! it makes SENSE

  • sonarghost

    There are Some video courses in Logic available. I have 2 courses and they were a GREAT help in using logic. I recently came back to using logic after an 8 year 'break' from mixing and recording. Yes, Logic is probably disheartening for the casual user; however, Logic is extremely powerful and the environment makes the program totally customizable. As far as the people that are upset that they 'wasted' their money on the 7.2 version I have this to say. Gear Lust is a real issue to many musicians. They have to have the latest and greatest in order to think that it will improve their music. If you are that type of person all you have to do is listen to your favorite albums that were made 2 years ago (or longer) and realize that they were NOT made with the newest programs, or computers, or synths that are available right now TODAY. So don't fall for Gearlust lol.

  • Logic is, perhaps, the deepest of all DAW's. Within that depth lies layers and layers of compositional techniques waiting to be employed in our projects. This means that we've got to learn something before we can be Logic Pros. Often a use'rs demand for intuitiveness is a excuse for not putting in the hard work it takes to master a complex tool.

    I hope that Apple, in it's holy grail quest to sell pro apps to the world, won't dumb down Logic to that anyone could master it without putting in the time. Hey, Logic is far from perfect, but so is a Steinway. Mastering the imperfections of an instrument is the secret for mastering the instrument itself!

    The last thing I want is "ProBand"… there is so much more to musical life than loops… believe it or not!

  • It would violate our usage policies if Steve pushed his own trainings, so I'll do it for him — go watch Steve's Logic video trainings. 🙂 Many of the things you find difficult in Max will become far clearer once you hear Steve present them. His Sculpture training alone will make you smack your head and go "ohhhh, that's how that works" — including some functionality that's simply not described in the manual. And while Apple could have done a better job with the manual, sometimes it takes the perspective of an artist or composer outside the company to really help you master a tool.

    But, Steve, while I agree, it occurs to me that not everyone in this conversation is really talking about the same thing. There is depth that requires scaling a learning curve by necessity, because otherwise you'd have to dumb it down. There's depth that is inherently complex, but could be made more accessible in a way that would benefit experts and newcomers alike. Then there are features that are made complex by their implementation. Solving the last two of those is never a simple matter, but it's the sort of thing I would hope Apple has been working on.

    Another case in point: Max/MSP/Jitter will never be an easy-to-learn application. It's complexity and challenges are directly linked to its power and flexibility. But its creators have acknowledged that it's also time to revisit the way certain elements of the program are designed and documented, without sacrificing backwards compatibility. I fully expect a friendlier, easier-to-use next release of Max, without it being MaxBand. (And, by the same token, I can say that, by presenting Max in a different way than the documentation does, I've seen students fairly new to computer music get much better with Max than they expected. So better teaching and version upgrades are both good things.)

  • Quantize: My previous statement was obviously a joke and a play on the word "logic". That said, I use Cubase, ProTools, Logic Pro, Live, etc…I have and use them all. If Logic is such a "horror" to use, why would I use it everyday on professional TV spots and film scores?

    I completely agree with Steve: Complex tools take time to learn, period. Dumbing down Logic would be a shame. If someone finds it difficult to use, simply invest the time or use something else.

  • Whatever happens, I don't expect Apple to "dumb down" Logic. Many of the developers working on the project came from Emagic, and they wouldn't hurt their baby, for starters. Look at what Apple did with Final Cut and DVD Studio: developed on features and interface and built a more polished, easier-to-use product. Easy-to-use and powerful do NOT have to be mutually exclusive things, period. (In fact, on the contrary, design elements that make functionality less accessible by definition also make it less powerful to the end user.)

    Taking Soundtrack Pro as an example, I said to the Apple developers the first time I saw Soundtrack that I'd love to see some of these features in Logic. The Action Layers make effects easier-to-learn and easier-to-use, and they also make Soundtrack more powerful as a sound design tool. They'd be even more useful in Logic. I'd be really surprised if some element of this didn't show up in the next version of Logic.

    So, yeah, some people are complaining because they didn't take the time to learn the program. But there's obviously room for improvement.

  • Peter Morris

    I use and teach Logic every day (I'm a Level 1 and Level 2 Apple Certified Trainer in the UK). For sure, the UI needs a facelift and some things need simplifying. The environment, for instance is a monster – powerful and strong. However, much of it can be integrated into the arrange page. Many things have been mentioned in the past (folders, sample accurate editing, transform window) and these could do with improving. However, the big thing for me is supporting new users.

    Without new users, Apple's income stream will be crippled and we can expect little investment in the product. So, my tuppenyworth is that Logic should be made easy to use for the common functions but not take away the depth that makes it so rich and flexible. Take a look at the interface back in pre-Mac days and there's so much in common with today's UI. It's like looking at a b&w spooky edit of today's product!

    I know from teaching newbies that there are some areas they find just plain unintuitive. I'm in a job of Apple keep it that way. However, we're out of a product of they don't improve it.

    Pete Morris

    Nope, I don't know wht's coming and nor do others I've talked to.

  • If Apple removes the environment they will also remove the only reason for me to have a Mac here. Everything else I have runs on Windoze (my chosen 3d app requires it if you're sans sgi) and Linux might even begin to look more attractive. Certainly my current Logic system would get years of abuse and sit alongside anything else I bring in here.

    The idea that they might expand its abilities beyond the routing & processing of midi is a better notion (imo). I wouldn't necessarily ask for the full depth of PD/Max under the hood, since there's no reason you can't just load them up (or Bidule or whatever) alongside or in another part of your workflow, but the fact that all audio routing is handled on the audio objects rather than the same way midi routing is achieved is rather odd given the number of years that audio objects have existed. However I can understand how hard of a nut that would be to crack in terms of workflow since they're making the app so focused on working mostly in the arrange page with the single channel left pane (the whole accessibility bit).

  • bought it

    Pro Tools is the “standard” for audio editing, largely do to the hardware, an “Avid Thingie” – now the Apple / Apogee relationship changes everything. Next look where Avid other companies to integrate their features into Pro Tools, e.g., notation & soft synths, which have been in Logic for some time. No doubt Logic is a powerful program with lots of feature sets that many would never use. I moved from Studio Vision to Pro Tools – then went to PC and Cakewalk – A good musician and computer geektype did a demo on Logic. It seemed pretty easy to make music with… so I took the plunge – at that time it was cross platform. I have since learned Avid – Final Cut Studio – Graphics programs – I bet most folks do not get all of the features from Excel and Word that are available in these programs. Because of Pro Tools in the market place one must learn to use it at least understand it’s tool sets. I work between the two programs for various reasons. While I find the UI could be changed / updated – it is still easy to navigate it. My feeling is some of the efx could be upgraded to more of the “vintage” or the SSL emulation – Ultrabeat could be more “Strike” like — outside of that – Logic works very very well on almost any OSX Mac – I’ve really pushed the system with reverbs on every channel – eq. Galore – all the things you wouldn’t / shouldn’t do just to test (un official) how “optimized” the program is with my G5 – It kicks butt around my PT LE. My conclusion: with the Apogee relationship – some of the best hardware out there – some tweaks with the efx and instruments – all you need to do is make some music.

  • I personally thing that what makes logic is its simplicity in the way a lot of things are set out. I use both logic on pc & cubase (now version 4) on pc. Cubase used to be a good app but has gone all clunky, adding too much bling as standard. logic on the other hand can be built from the ground up if you know what you are doing. logic does have a far greater learning curve but once you master it, the app is the best out there for music.

    What i think they should do is do away with the enviroment in the app its self, but have an aditional application that you can access the enviroment from. much like the xtools bundle with osx. I dont know how to use xtools so i dont install it and dont go there. much could be said for users of the enviroment, its much loved but daunting if you dont know what you are doing. Logic could autmate the enviroment with easy to use things much like the add new audio tracks at present, but for those wanting to sort out audio objects etc.. they can load up the secondary program that will directly intergrate with it. it would be a good move for apple to make it a osx.4 prog only but masny will be a bit annoyed about it. I really hope they dont make it intel only though as i have 2 G5 macs and cant see me getting a new one for another few years yet.

    Logic needs to get its audio features right to bring it closer to Pro tolls functionality, it also need to get the elastic audio thing going, a cool feature i think would be when you add a compressor etc… overa track for the wave form to change depending on the compressor setting, so you can physically see what its doing to the sound. this would also be great for delays etc… and a first time for any daw out there. the amount of pages need to be decreased and a proper drum edit window needs to be sorted out for the dance based people among us. lots of bugs or simple problems still exsist in logic which i am sure they will look into before relasing the next gen audio app.

    i have heard rumor today at a trade show that logic will be released next month and will be called logic 8. i dont know how true this is and wont disclose who it was i heard it from but they were basically an major install company that were going to stop installing logic unless they were given some future proofing from apple regarding the app. i can only presume that we are going to see somthing at the musikmesse at the end of the month.

  • sorry i ment logic and cubase on pc i use logic 7.2 at present. for give me i have been at a trade show all day and was very hungover today to cap it all off

  • god i can beleive how bad my spelling was, i need some food then sleep

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  • Thanks, Peter for the kind words. I work very hard on my Logic tutorials and it's nice to know that they're appreciated!

    However, the above link is not working. And since Peter plugged them for me, my video tutorials are really at:

    By the way, I have a very good feeling about the new Logic. Apple is dedicated to make this DAW the best one out there. To leap frog the current (and newly released) DAW's takes time, lots of energy and dedication. Besides, they need to consolidate and rewrite 15 years of coding to give Logic a clear path to the future!

    Apple didn't buy Emagic just to make GarageBand… I believe they made a strategic decision to be #1 in the DAW market… let's cross our fingers and hope for the best!

  • i bought it

    apple put the basis of logic audio engine in Final

    Cut & Soundtrack.

  • The only thing that's certain for future Apple products is that nothing's certain…..

    I just hope that my jump to Mac and investment in Logic updates will turn out to be a future-proof, worthwhile one. You never know… they could be discontinuing the product any minute.

  • Philippe Brodu is sm

    Whether Philippe Brodu is an actual ex-EmApple employee, I don't know – I've never heard of this french snail-sucking idiot. He's wholeheartedly full of $hit with every point.

    Every so often the phrase "those that think they know everything are annoying those of us that do" becomes true, and so today I'll come out of the woodwork to set the record straight and you can say you heard it here first when the WWDC rolls around and Logic's next version is unveiled. Suffice to say I've witnessed a demo of the latest Logic pre-release code inside the office of one of the major and well-known virtual instrument manufacturers. They're under NDA and therefore I can't share the origin of this information.

    Here are the real facts as of the present day and time, based on a recent tour of the virtual instrument manufacturer's office (that has close ties with EmApple and is planning compatibility of its virtual instruments arsenal to coincide with the next update to the Logic line):

    1) EmApple germany (aka the employee base formerly known as Emagic) has had a ground-up, from-scratch rewrite of the product we know as Logic in the works for quite some time. In parallel, they've been working on the final major update to the current Logic 7 codebase which will include among other catch-up-to-all-the-other-DAW features, elastic audio (better late than never I guess). The successor update to the current Logic 7 code, has been developed on and optimized for Leopard.

    2) At the 2007 Apple WWDC, following the Leopard announcement, the successor to Logic will be announced. It's unclear if it will still be called "Logic" or if they'll use the opporunity to introduce the new naming convention for the new-codebase-version that will follow the next and last update to current Logic codebase.

    3) The new engine with elastic audio (time-stretching) sounded amazing – as good or better than the caliber that Izotope Radium currently offers in Logic 7's T&P (who knows, maybe radium algos were even licensed from Izo).

    4) As to all the new Apple audio-production related hardware they're trying to bounce off the patent office to see if they stick, I have no clue but obviously there's a master plan that includes new a ground-up DAW software platform complemented by new hardware. I didn't see any such hardware when I toured the virtual instrument manufacturer that demo'd the latest Logic code to me.



  • Excuse me… Logic has had "elastic audio" for more than a year now. Any audio region that is recorded into Logic or is bounced directly to the audio window can become elastic by checking the follow tempo check box in the the rgion parameter box. Hello?!

  • DB

    Your all forgetting to add one line to all of your comments:

    "In my opinion."

  • maybe they'll release a pc version next!


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  • c64

    @Steve Horelick: How can you bounce/route directly to the audio window so it becomes 'elastic'? If I have an audio file that is not recorded with Logic? I have numerous loops that I just drag and drop into logic but then they are 'static'.

    Thanks in advance!

    p.s. I know a bit offtopic but I had to ask 😉

  • aj

    If there is a new app, I can imagine it being a sort of superset of Logic, Soundtrack and GarageBand. I've used Logic in the past, I concur with many commenters here that the Environment is a big stumbling block; I've since switched to a mix of Reason, Live & DP. For doing quick-and-dirty edits and remixes I find myself launching GarageBand surprisingly often. I can't help but wish sometimes that application A had a feature from B and C had bits of A as well.

    If there is a new app, it probably won't replace Logic as much as supercede it, much as PageMaker was superceded by InDesign, or OS 9 by OS X. You know that someone out there is still running PageMaker on an aging OS 9 box because their workflow depends on it…just as some people are still running Notator on Atari STs.

    What I'd like to see in a new pro audio/midi app:

    * Tabbed interface from Soundtrack Pro (arrangement / mixer, action history, multiple projects, etc.) with 'hideable' sections a la Live or DP: single & multiple window modes, maybe tear-off tabs?

    * Scalable performance / audio quality (rougher for arrange/audition mode, HQ for rendering)

    * virtual 'outboard rack' for all the FX and softsynths, something more like Reason's modules and cabling?

    * Replace the Environment with something more advanced, maybe a scripting environment based on Automator (good for batch processing files, too) that generates a customized "rack module" midi or audio processor

    * Live-style realtime performance / looping capabilities (lower render quality, stream from disk)

    * Simple per-track popups to select input / outputs available from mixer, busses, ReWire, CoreAudio, CoreMIDI and/or DAE

    * Extensive contextual menu support; no window menus!

    * Fold-away help pane / tutorials (like Live)

    * Track Overview display to quickly grab-and-scroll to a specific song section

  • JPérez

    -64 bit floating point engine.

    -64 bit floating point Export track 'no bottle neck' (to mastering into Logic)

    -Very High Quality render (infinite bit depth and upsamplingfor summing and processing) to wake up in the morning and listen a summing amazing sound.

    -Convolution tech for new plugins

    -Tape Simulation plug

    -Hedd like plugin

    -Beat detective

    -Algorithmix alliance

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  • cortez

    how about dsd (sacd type) 1 bit 5.6 mhz (korg and tascam already have 2 track versions) super hi fi recording (all digital audio starts as 1 bit anyway) on an octomac with 32 gigs of ramand a reasonable 8 disk xserve raid. the control surface is a mac buyout of the lemur at half the price -( jazzmutant doesn't mind selling out for $5 million) on apple's june 07 40 inch 4k 8 megapixel screen. all math is 64 bit floating point, and a new vsl symphonic cube light is included, the software package is called logic extreme and still sells for $999. the extreme hardware is $10k, a bargain for that power. somewhat future proof for 5 years

  • Please accept my attempt at being optimistic and relentlessly positive here, it's a tone aimed to make a very strong point. First let me just state the obvious: Apple's brand is heavily rooted in the music and video industry. They bought out Emagic for a reason, and it's not for "Garageband Pro." As an avid Logic "Environment" user, I find it almost impossible to imagine that the brain trust at EmApple would make 15 years of technology and capability simply disappear. Things you could do with midi since the 80's have not become obsolete, they're even more relevant. There are things you can do in the Environment that you just can't do anywhere else. The Logic Pro developers know this and take great pride in that fact I'm sure. I mean, you can't go back in time and un-invent technology can you? That's what they'd be doing if they got rid of it. No, if they replace Logic it would almost certainly have to include everything Logic Pro 7.2.3 includes now, plus more, and made more accesible. They may reinvent the interface of the Environment but they can't just make the underlying capabilities the Environment gives us, go away. There are serious powers and "players" at work here: big name musicians and producers out there that rely on custom midi routing setups for live performances. Some of the biggest and most "pro" studios in the music industry use Logic Pro as the heart of their system. Folks that make their living on Logic. They create the case studies that Apple loves to showcase on it's website. I'm quite sure Apple wants (and needs) to keep these professionals close and happy, with a full capability upgrade path, that is, never losing capability always on par or better philosopy. Well, that means keeping the features of the Environment, somehow someway. I think the Environment will see changes, but not in *what* it can do, just in *how* it does it. Finally consider how much more applications are providing rich interoperability today (rewire, osc xml, virtual midi routing, etc), and how much more performers and artists are wanting to include live multimedia into their stage performances. This makes the need for a rich, flexible, object-oriented routing setup (i.e. the "Environment") even more important, not less. The music "headz" out there are getting more sophisticated, not less. If anything, it'll be Environment on steroids. I have to believe the 20+ year veterans in Germany/California deeply understand this and want to stay competitive with their flagship product.

  • JohnHope

    Since the return of Steve Jobs, applications have all had the same history:

    1- acquiring of a third party app

    2- creation of a consumer app

    3- creation of a killer pro app

    4- optimisation for new OSX versions

    5- Integration with new paradigms (multitouch screen..)

    So i can be almost sure that there will be a new, professional music/audio app, that will be a killer.

    It can't be Logic 7 because it isn't a killer at all. It's great, powerful and high end, but so far it only killed new users when they weren't able to create a new track.

  • Steve

    my vote is in the logic is "unnecessaily complex" basket. Compared to the competing packages. The recent upgrades in logic (which sprung from the garageband developments are intuitive for me (like Apple Loops), and I'm hoping for a good upgrade in logic 8 that continues this trend. but otherwise its frustrating. If tools or nuendo had apple loops i'd ditch logic.

  • Jeff

    Hey Steve, You can use apple loops in Cubase 4.

    I bought Logic Express yesterday – did not want to spend 1K on Logic Pro until i decided weather or not I like the product. I'm very disappointed.

    This software is OLD. Apple has kept it alive with add-ons, but it's a relic.

    After having a great deal of creative fun with Garage Band, I thought about ditching Cubase – which I have been using for 15 years. I had hoped Logic would be a "pro" version of GB. Boy was I wrong.

    Please Apple release a whole new product, and let me have an upgrade path too (please)

  • Christopher

    Here's my rant of the day:

    I must admit my ability to wait and wait and wait for Apple's new "Pro Tools Killer" is beginning to end. I'm giving Apple till the Leopard release, then if nothing comes… I'm done with Logic.

    I realize I'm just one person, but I'd imagine I'm not the only once who feels this way.

  • Plumbstone

    There will be no Logic 8!!!!!

    The new app will have a new name.

    They are working on it for 5 years and it will be out this year.

    It will be a “Pro Tools Killer” with a Logic feel but in a new user interface and take advantage of OSX.5 (it will need it and don’t work on X.4 or prior) and new Apple hardware (touch screen display!).

    More info: no more xskey and no more envirronement [sic]

    Well all that was way off the mark….

  • Mike

    Well it is called Logic Pro 8 and it sucks BIG TIME, sync, functionality, interface, reliability, cpu usage, nothing really works well. A complete screw of the gullible public. Enough to put me off of Apple for ever. Apple = Microsoft 2.0

  • i agree with aj.

  • Well, basically the movie companies and the record companies are owned by the same corporations. There are different executives, but it’s basically Sony/BMG, EMI, Universal, Warner, Disney. They even own the cable and broadcast networks. Jobs knows what he is up against, and yet at the same time, he is their guide to the cyber-mall in the nether world called the internet. He’s the man with the plan. They hate him for that, but they have to pay him deference. iTMS is the #4 music retailer behind Wallmart, Target, and Best Buy. It looks like EMI will go first. The others will fall into line. Everybody knows how to RIP songs and will soon know how to RIP DVDs. Many already do. TiVO, Sling, and EyeTV are very popular. The Genie is out of the lamp.

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  • A few years later after this article, Pro Tools is still alive and well with new hardware and pro tools 64 on the brink of being release with full 64 bit support.. watch out other daws out there, the grandfather has been completely rewritten, Logic hasn’t made anything much new, Final cut pro latest number release was a fiasco that brought many customer back to Avid. How much of a bust have all these die avid die speculation came to, laughable.

  • Emmanuel

    A few years later after this article, Pro Tools is still alive and well with new hardware and pro tools 64 on the brink of being release with full 64 bit support.. watch out other daws out there, the grandfather has been completely rewritten, Logic hasn’t made anything much new, Final cut pro latest number release was a fiasco that brought many customer back to Avid. How much of a bust have all these die avid die speculation came to, laughable.

  • Emmanuel

    A few years later after this article, Pro Tools is still alive and well with new hardware and pro tools 64 on the brink of being release with full 64 bit support.. watch out other daws out there, the grandfather has been completely rewritten, Logic hasn’t made anything much new, Final cut pro latest number release was a fiasco that brought many customer back to Avid. How much of a bust have all these die avid die speculation came to, laughable.